Interview with Ileana Rodriguez
BIOGRAPHY
Ileana was born and raised in Matanzas, Cuba where she was diagnosed at the age of 13 with a malformation of the spine that left her paralyzed from the waist down. In the year 2000, she moved to the United States with her family looking for better medical treatments than those offered in her natal country. Although walking again seem hardly possible therapists encouraged her to have an independent life something that Ileana considers her must valuable treasure.
Ileana did a Bachelor and Master degree in Architecture at Florida International University, with the goal of improving accessibility and promoting independent living for those with a disability. During her years at FIU, Ileana had another passion, swimming and the Paralympic games, thanks to friends and family and the encouragement and support of a coach, she made it to the London Paralympic Games in 2012 representing the United States.
INTERVIEW
NEIL: Welcome Ilena. Can you please introduce yourself and tell how you did come to be engaged with the Paralympic movement?
ILEANA: Thank you so much for having me join you guys today to talk about this topic that is definitely a great passion of mine. And I started doing this, well I’m an architect and it was in architecture school where I became interested in the topic but I’m a Paralympic athlete, I competed in the 2012 Paralympic Games and I graduated architecture school and master school and went ahead on thesis topic on inclusion and how science interferes with the world of accessibility, it has a great responsibility of the world of accessibility so I decided to take this route. I worked for several years for a big architecture company and I decided to go on my own and started to support architects in design and ITC, as I work together with them to make Paralympic games as accessible as possible
NEIL: Antonio, you’re with us for a short while, so, I’ll hand over to you.
ANTONIO: I’m in Munich, I’m inside the media room where they see everything that’s happening in their world so it is quite an interesting insight and I’m about to take my night back to Lisbon where I’ll stay a few days, and then I’ll follow the conversation while I can. It is great, to be able to talk about the Olympic step because it is a topic the community really enjoys. And especially because we have seen lots of change in the way of the Games have been covered in the last couple of years. You know the attention is not just on the Olympics, it is going to the Paralympics with a lot of Live streaming on Facebook so it is an interesting topic the community will enjoy
ILEANA: It is quite, it is taking more and more momentum today, and I think for, I always say the great thing about the Olympic and Paralympic games is it is ready to change perceptions over what we can do as humans. And I think, accessibility definitely has a great impact on the cities, if we do it right and if you do it right you can have an impact in that society, and the games when they leave, they actually leave an amazing legacy, socially and in the infrastructure of the city itself.
ANTONIO: Have you looked at anything related to the Olympics in Tokyo? I ask because Japan is in an interesting situation in terms of ageing, the ageing society and over the last couple of years they seem to have developed they need to improve the way of buildings are billed and health care is delivered, do you have insights with that that you could share with us.
ILEANA: That I could share with you? That’s a suggestion. But I would say Japan definitely, it is a great opportunity for Japan for sure to include.
I think he is working on it.
But, as many, many cities which have been quite developed sometimes, it is a bigger challenge I think because, I always say it is harder to remove a wall than to remove it from the plans, right? So, as far as removing it on a piece of paper than it is to come with a hammer and fix it, right. So, when cities are developed it becomes a huge challenge to make it a lot more accessible, so I think definitely they have the challenge and at the same time they have the opportunity to make it better and I hope they will.
NEIL: Debra you also had a question.
DEBRA: I wanted to come on what both of you were talking about because you’re right Ileana about having something like Olympics and Paralympics come into countries that the legacy you leave behind, and I’ll use the example of Vancouver. They made so many changes to get ready for the Olympics, I forget which year it was, and when I went to Vancouver years later it was still one of the most accessible cities I’d ever been to, they had all their taxis to take wheelchair passengers and it was amazing to see the legacy that was left because of the Olympics and Paralympic movement and going to Japan. Japan’s made a lot of efforts as Antonio’s noting because, you know, their society’s ageing than any other society in the world so they’ve already made quite a few efforts, but as we all know, of course in all countries there’s so much more than needs to be done. And I thought it was an important point you made.
IILEANA: you made once developed it is harder to ‑ you have to be a lot more thoughtful about how you’re going to make sure things are fully accessible and you’re including inclusive design, especially like when in the United States and other countries, we have these buildings that have been for a long time and we want to have a historic way and there seem to be more things to be considered when you know, you’re moving in the developed versus the developing countries, so I thought that was an interesting point.
ILEANA: I agree with you Debra, one thing that I have seen developed, talking on the phone of a city that is older and it is being developed already, the challenge is there, but I think it makes an interesting challenge at the same time, even though it is hard I think it is quite possible if you look at Washington DC, for example, it is one of the most beautiful examples that I’ve lived through. When I came through, I was born in Cuba, not in the United States, and I was very lucky when I was a high school student I was taken to Washington DC so I would learn about as a foreigner, I would learn about my new country, so I was taken to learn about them, how the Government of the United States was made basically, and I found it one of the most memorable trips of my life. And it was the first time I travelled all by myself, after being in a wheelchair. And I landed in a city that had very little accessibility but I was with a lot of friends from high school who were more than happy to carry me down and going through the adventure of taking escalators with a girl in the wheelchair, though it was the coolest things in the world, not the safest but a cool one, but I went back years later, in 2012 was the last time I was in Washington DC, again all by myself, this time not with any friends, completely by myself and I was able to take the Metro by myself without a problem and enter a lot more places that I couldn’t enter before. So, it has taken time to transform itself, but it has done quite an amazing job. So, I always put this example as when people tell me that it is not possible because it is an Old City, I always say, it is for the impossible either, it is hard but not impossible, I think.
DEBRA: I remember, and I agree, I’ve watched Washington shift and change and so many things are more accessible, of course, we still have a lot of work to do, and I had guests come over from Spain from the ONCE Foundation and one of the gentlemen is quadriplegic and uses a power wheelchair and I got to see where the opportunities for that city were travelling with him and I travelled with him and another gentleman all through Washington DC and took the train up to New York and our trains were very inaccessible. I was very, I was discouraged I thought we had gotten further with that. And I’ve seen train stations and other parts of the world that are a lot more accessible and the trains they feel like a matter of fact one of my guests, two gentlemen travelling with me, he actually got hurt on the train because he was going to open up the bend to put his luggage in, and opened up the bend and the train shifted the edge of the bin smashing him in the head and cut his head and we had to take him to the emergency room in New York. I didn’t really want our Spanish guests to be getting, to experience our emergency rooms but you know, we were afraid he had a concussion, so it just showed me that progress has been made but there’s more work to do.
ILEANA: 100% agree and the train system is another level, I think. And yes, I have many experiences with trains. If we want to go that route.
DEBRA: It was hard to watch, I was really a bit embarrassed and mortified, I thought we were much further than we really were, Neil over to you.
NEIL: No, I think it is a really, the transport infrastructure’s a really important point because we can, quite often we build new venues for the sporting events, but, the venues are in old cities, and one of the things that I observed and this is not to reflect badly on Brazil but when I went to Rio was for the Paralympics, they’ve made these huge efforts to make the city navigable and accessible but there are temporary structures and all been put up after the Olympics
And you know, it is like ‑ what we want and what I think it is happening over time is that this is planning to be integrated into ‑ it’s one set of events. It is one venue, it is one whole city and therefore you know what, people with disabilities aren’t only interested in power sport but sport in general, they’re consumers and customers, they need to be accessing venues during the Olympics and Paralympics, so there’s the whole element of making sure that we design this both sets of events concurrently and accessible. But also, make sure that there’s the legacy like you mentioned before, so we know for example in Beijing the legacy was thousands and thousands of dropped kerbs which had not been made available before, so the city bake nave gable and you could get up and crossroads and on to pavements and stuff. In Brazil, maybe this is why they had a temporary structures, they were putting you know, accessible bridges over the traffic and having travelled in a Brazilian taxi, I can tell you that you probably want the bridge over the traffic because they all think they’re exon senescence, I had one driver saying ‑ I don’t want to die! Not today anyway!
ILEANA: I had the opportunity on both Games you were describing, and I was volunteering on both of those games because I’m also a Paralympian, which is a group of athletes which support the Paralympic movement after retirement and I went as a Paralympian to both games and it was an adventure for myself, I remember the temporary structure and I used to have the same thoughts and now that I am closer to the Games and can make a little more of an impact on accessibility it is one point I raised that the design can be made accessible when we cut it at the right time.
NEIL: Indeed.
ILEANA: I’m pushing for and looking forward to Lima for the para American games because it is one of the first ones that I believe will have very little transition between pan alps and para pan alps and mainly because, temporary infrastructure is inevitable during the Games you have a city that you’re overflowing with people and you’re going to have to have installations that you don’t typically need on a city. So, you will have to have obviously temporary infrastructure, but they should be made for services and shouldn’t be made to resolve accessibility problems. And this is something that we’re really, really striving for in Lima, and I hope at least the last thing with the venue sometimes is the last mile that we call it, right. Because, in many instances, it is the responsibility of the city, so, the influence that we can have, we try to support the city as much as we can. But sometimes we need to the city also has to engage to change, not only the last mile but change other things in the city, because we don’t do anything if we have an amazing venue that you cannot have access to.
So, this is something that we need to push more and more as I think ‑ it is something that the Games can definitely change, right? And in cities like Lima, I think it is going to, it is tremendous for them you have people in Lima that think this is news to them, it is completely news to them that you can live in a city that is accessible. So, I think it is going to be, I’m quite excited for those Games, honestly
NEIL: And the other thing is when we’re looking to the Games in general, we’re looking them to have a legacy so, the venues that the host city are building, and putting up, the part of the whole selection process is about legacy as well you know, one of the reasons, London scored highly for the 2012 was they made a convincing argument that the investment in the legacy benefits for the city was going to be significant.
And so, planning to make sure that that you don’t have that accessible island, you have the last mile, because this isn’t just about an event, it is about building stuff for the future of the city and for the inhabitants beyond that event as well, and that’s why you’re right, planning for this stuff and making sure that the last might is also accessible is really, really key. And if you go to places like the Olympic Park in East London now, it’s still accessible, mind you that was, I was going to say a greenfield site because it was all built new, it wasn’t greenfield it was brownfield it was nasty industrial land before they levelled it and created what they did
ILEANA: Not because I competed in those Games but those are still my favourite.
NEIL: As a Londoner, that makes me proud.
DEBRA: I like the opening ceremonies.
Where did you compete? What part of the Games did you compete in?
ILEANA: I competed in swimming, I spent most of my tame in the pool, swimmers don’t get to watch anything else, and I was swimming at five events so I was quite busy throughout the entire time there. But it was quite an amazing experience for sure.
DEBRA: We love watching the swimming, my husband
NEIL: That’s OK, I’ve been to the Aqua Centre
so, I’ve been to the Aqua Centre, it is quite warm in there though.
ILEANA: It is warm. For me, it was great, because being in these buildings swimming it was like ‑ the nerd swimmer, and the architect slash swimmer was very excited.
NEIL: Despite being the home of that, we don’t have a lot of HADSC buildings in the UK, we’ve not been brave enough. That was a shame. But, yeah, absolutely it is an absolutely beautiful building and really actually I think a testament to the fact that you know, it dismisses the argument that accessibility needs to be ugly.
ILEANA: It doesn’t have to be, I always say if it is in the design concept it can actually enhance the design.
NEIL: Yeah.
ILEANA: A lot make it an afterthought and when you make it an afterthought you have the hospitals, so we have all these tactile that you don’t need half the time, that just becomes a hazard more than a help, I was taking a walk yesterday with my cousin here in Panama, and it was crazy, I found a street they have the tactile for the visually impaired but it leads to a huge hole in the street. This is the most unsafe directionality that I’ve ever seen, it is amazing. So, I think definitely, if you think about these issues, as part of the design concept your result can sometimes be better.
NEIL: Absolutely. And talking of tactile paving, I was in Germany the other weekend, there were lengths and lengths of tactile paving, almost going off to nowhere, and you’re thinking, hold on a second there is meant to a stopping point, and it was almost like it was rails for you to get your stick along and then walk along the street. Like you, it was leading into roadworks and pits in the road and everything else so, yeah. Sometimes retrofitting these environments, it is not so good, don’t rely on it too much.
DEBRA: I remember years, this is years ago, I went to a conference when it was, it is actually moved two times since this conference, this was the conference where it was close to the LA airport, and I was watching some of the guests and they were with their white canes and they were actually stepping into traffic and I was watching it from my hotel room way up, and it was just scaring me so bad, because it is like people are going to get hurt. Somebody’s going to get hit by a car, it was really, really frightening to watch it. That’s probably one reason why they changed the venue, but I remember watching it, and thinking this is very unsafe. The mother in me came out and I started wanting to start to go down there and direct traffic. So, yeah, there’s a lot to be considered. I already remember I went to Kenya once, I was in Kenya one time and I was, there was a woman in a wheelchair that needed to get into the bank and they didn’t have sidewalks and the road was all muddy, and she had to wait until two very strong men came by and kindly picked up her wheelchair and took her inside the bank. I thought, so, then she gets to do her interactions in the bank and have to wait for kind people to come, lift her wheelchair up, hopefully, that goes well, and it just as Antonio mentioned our society’s age. I know here in the United States every single day this year 10,000 Americans turn 65 and more Americans than ever before are using wheelchairs, so, the accessibility has never been more critical in the world than it is right now. I like the leadership the Paralympics show when they go into these, and Olympics show when they go into the countries, in these different cities and countries to really try to make sure that it works for everybody, including like the athlete.
So, it is fascinating to watch, inclusive design in the built environment is such an important topic.
IILEANA: Inclusion, in general, to be able to be employed by the way I have read your book ‑
DEBRA: Thank you.
ILEANA: One of them, if you go to the work, if you’re in the work environment, and trying to find a job, you obviously need accessibility right, and you are as you obviously are well aware, it is, it is a huge population we’re living behind who can be productive and be independent and be independent brinks together health, improvement, most of the time you find people with disabilities are a lot more healthy, they work. And you find people who are able to go to a park they are healthier, we’re taking a burden away from society, and not only that, the gateway for this is the built environment. If you don’t have a built environment that allows for this, none of these are even possible. I remember, one of my very first jobs, my employer was in a very old building and he had a big step for me to enter and because he was an old building it was OK, and this poor man, he was the probably one of the nicest people I worked with, and he was so embarrassed to almost turn me away because he couldn’t hire me
But I was very lucky that the neighbour who was this guy who knew me for many years, you know what, I will help her every single morning to come in if you give her the opportunity. And that’s how I got my first job as an architect. It was crazy but it is the reality we live in and you have to be will to Ofcom the steps every day. But the built environment also architects, if we were more conscious of how important it is at the level of university n the universities, they don’t teach us about this. We’re more conscious about these issues, I can tell you all my friends who graduated with me, made accessible buildings today, only because they worked with me.
DEBRA: Right they understood it
It works for everybody. Accessibility benefits all of us.
ILEANA: I have a graphic that shows it clearly, how many people can you take to a ramp, how many people can take to the steps, right. And it’s it is a reality we live in, and we have to stop being so afraid of accepting that we’re different you know.
DEBRA: Yes, I agree.
ILEANA: That’s the issue, we don’t have to be six foot tall and amazing.
DEBRA: Blonde, blue-eyed, I just want to tell one sad story. I know a woman who is very talented and she has a long history of working with top corporations at chief diversity officer and she was brought to interview in cool foreign as when she came in her motor scooter, very, very qualified educated amazing woman, the recruiter looked at her and said I’m so sorry the job had been filled, they’d flown here from the east coast of the United States to the west coast and when they realised she was in a wheelchair, they told her the position was filled. That’s why people sue each other in the United States, but anyway, another company got her, and they were a smarter company because they understood her talent. Neil, I know you wanted to comment.
NEIL: Mainly I was actually waving, slightly jokingly, because you said blonde, blue identify, six foot tall but apart from … I mean it is a bit dark these days …
ILEANA: Good job Neil you made it.
NEIL: Yeah, I know, I’m living my privilege.
DEBRA: You won, you won.
NEIL: Yeah, but no, I was thinking about the sort of architecture stuff, in the UK, certainly there is some element but it’s around compliance so people are looking and going, well I learnt about building regulations, so, I’m going to design to meet regulations and not design for people.
ILEANA: That’s another stage of the problem. I remember working for architecture firm and meeting with architects and I’m telling them why can’t you ‑ we were building the entrance to an apartment, an apartment building we’re making the entrance to one of the rooms that could be accessed from the street, it was very easy to make a ramp because it was in a heel end architect but was so stubborn he wanted to make steps. It is like it is not the accessible one, why are you worried about making a ramp. He has not seen me, never seen me, we’re on a phone call, right. And I’m like, why are you so worried about making a stair that only a few people will use, but they will be students. What if a student breaks a leg. And he’s like, what do you mean breaks a leg, students do stupid things they can break a leg easily. Not only that, what if they have a grandmother visiting them, it is so like what if they have a friend that doesn’t walk? I mean just, it would be less money to build a ramp than to build a step. He wouldn’t get it
He wouldn’t get it and wasn’t even offensive to the point I left the conversation. You know I think I’ve nothing to talk about in this conversation. Am And it is how hesitant we are I think as designers, many times to realise these things, and I think it is also a lack of education, definitely, that comes along with it, that meeting the code is all you have to do.
They think if they make it better, they don’t need the code anymore. I’m like, no, if you make it better, would you overpass what the code needs
But it is very sad because I think it is the lost opportunity definitely. If you’re designing a restaurant you would have fewer clients.
NEIL: Yes absolutely.
ILEANA: I’m in a wheelchair and I’m sociable, if I say no to a restaurant because it is not accessible you would lose five people that could eat at your restaurant and my friends would not attempt to go there, it would not cross their mind, if I could not go there, they’re not going to the restaurant because of their food, it is because of their friends. So, it is so simple as that. And it is quite funny, it happened to me so many times, so many times, the last time it happened we were 25 people in Lima.
And we changed the place, 25 people, this could mean the night of a small restaurant.
NEIL: Yeah absolutely. So, it is that magnified the halo effect around disability because once, they’re not your friends aren’t going to leave you to eat alone and carry on having a burger. Bye.
So, they burger joint misses out because they haven’t made it accessible.
I do think that the whole compliance mentality doesn’t really play into creativity and yet, architectures are creative, it is such a creative profession, that you would think that solving these challenges beautifully and elegantly would be something that people would jump at.
A why do you think there’s that resistance.
ILEANA: I always say there are two factors, one is the lack of location, as I was mentioning before, the lack of understanding that needing code is a requirement that being a good designer is making it inclusive, right.
But then, the second point and it is the only one that I could think of as something that is stopping a lot of the people in the industry, is the fact that the bigger we’ve become, bigger and bigger companies, as architects. And in bigger companies, you need bigger revenues to have bigger revenues we need to do things faster. To make things faster you don’t have too much time to think about designing, because design is a creative process that takes time and I think the mix of the design is what we’re so focused on, we need to finish and be on time and provide to the client, but we’re not thinking is that if we think ahead of time if we take accessibility seriously enough in the design process, even though this will take longer, it would take you less time to produce your construction document and the reason for this, is because you don’t have to start fitting in accessibility. You waste a lot of the time in production phase feeding in ramp, elevators, and you know, the devices that you need to make the space accessible because you didn’t spend enough time in the design process. Because you thought at the design process you need today save your hours to be able to produce an accessible design and this, I think is a huge mistake and especially in the leading companies today, this is a huge mistake
Because accessibility and these big, big companies is you sit down with someone inside the firm who knows the code right and left, and would grab your drawings and say this is not meeting the code this, is meeting code, it is not going to be about design, it is going to be a conversation about law. So, I think that’s what the problem is honestly.
DEBRA: I agree.
NEIL: For me, there are some really interesting parallels here that I hadn’t really thought about, which is parallels wean the physical environment and accessibility and the IT environment which is what I work in. And we are often seeing the same kind of things happening you know, and yes I know what you mean by the mass production of drawings, leading to the mass production of buildings that all look the same you know, we see the housing estates all over the UK that look identical because they’re not really architecture, they’re planning and modular and away you go.
But essentially, we do the same in IT, when we’re making programmes, when we’re compiling code we’re not handcrafting code we’re doing this using modular stuff and compilers and taking stuff that we’ve done before, so what we’re trying to do with the IT industry is to make sure that those building blocks and that’s what we call them, so similar, to your plans, are accessible from the get‑go, so when you take the components and they’re already on the shelf and take them off‑the‑shelf and pull them all together they’re already accessible so sure what those big architecture firms need to be doing is developing those modular drawings or those plans that are accessible from the start, they’re going to achieve the efficiencies and achieve that compliance, without the effort of retrofitting.
ILEANA: I think Debra wanted to make a comment.
DEBRA: Thank you. I interviewed a really, really talented designer on my show human potential at work, his same is August del los Reyes but, I’m messing up his name but he said that when something is designed without accessibility that that is, that shows a lack of creativity from the designer, he said the and he is a person that uses a wheelchair and he said when he sees this happen he just thinks designers are being lazy. I know that it is not always lazy like you said, it is sometimes this isn’t a code, this isn’t a code. Well no you have to follow the code but at the same time be innovative so your design is creative and works for everybody, inclusive design should be something that designers, architects take pride in doing. I saw an interesting story on 60 minutes about an architect that was blind and when we, he was an architect and then he became blind, I’m sure you know who I’m talking, and he became blind and people were going, woe you need to find a new profession, he was no I won’t, I’m a better architect because I’m blind, his designs are world-renowned and so creative and people like you and Ileana are really challenging the architects to think differently and once go again, go back to designing something that’s creative and innovative, and yes, fits and meets code but works for more people, I think this is a real interesting design challenge, that architects and designers should be looking at and saying, oh that’s so interesting, that’s going to make me be more creative, that’s the opportunity, that’s why we need leaders like you and this other gentleman, August, also.
ILEANA: When I started, I actually didn’t start as an architect in school and I thought the wheelchair was going to be a challenge to be an architect. After one year doing political science I realised that it was even harder to be a liar, so, I went back and I started to pursue my dream of being an architect, and my first interview for this big company I used to work for, I remember the gentleman who was very kind honestly on my interview asked me how would I be different from everybody else. I looked at him and I said I feel everything, he’s like what you do mean. When you’re sitting down on a wheelchair, my wheels can feel absolutely everything. And not only that, my height is different from everybody else.
My perception is completely different from everybody else, I can tell you the detail underneath your desk right now was well done or not.
And he’s looked at me like what is this lady talking about? And he’s like you know what, you’re absolutely right.
I think I do want you on my team just because you bring a different perception, and it is different for any disability. We should think about inclusion, in all the environments the same way, you can definitely, not only change the work environment around you, but you can also, if you’re a designer, if you’re working in services, you’re going to bring a whole new knowledge to the table because you live it every day. And I think for designers, definitely, definitely, accessibility is a great opportunity to think differently. And it can be a game‑changer if one big company decides to go this route, I always say it would be a game‑changer in the industry.
NEIL: Yeah. Excellent and Debra, you remembered August’s name as well. And I’m going to trip over pronouncing it, it is August del los Reyes.
DEBRA: I was going to go online and say the brilliant architect you mentioned too.
NEIL: It has been a real pleasure talking with you today, we also need to thank our supporters, MyClearText, waving to Elaine in the background here, and to Microlink and Barclays access for continuing to support us and sustaining access chat over all these years, and it’s really a pleasure again, thank you so much and we look forward to you joining us on Twitter.
DEBRA: I just want to say, Chris Downey is the gentleman we were talking about, a blind architect in San Fransisco, but Ileana we appreciate you being on today and we love MyClearText and Microlink and Barclay's access, sorry to forget the very important leaders’ names.
ILEANA: Thank you, Debra, and thank you, Neil, for having me here and sharing this time with you, it is a great honour for sure.
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